tv NOW With Alex Wagner MSNBC July 8, 2013 12:00pm-1:00pm EDT
>> a few. >> okay. do you have -- do you know whose voice that is in the background screaming? >> yes, definitely. it's georgie. >> do you have an opinion whose voice that is? >> i thought it was george. >> tell me why you think that. >> just the tone. just the volume and tone. >> can you identify whose voice that was yelng in the background? >> george's. >> how do you know that? >> i recognize his voice. i've heard him speak many times. i have no doubt in my mind that's his voice. >> do you have an opinion as to whose voice that is in the background? >> yes, i do. >> and whose voice is it? >> george zimmerman. >> on friday, the prosecution called trayvon martin's mother and brother to the stand. both of whom said it was martin calling for help. today the prosecution highlighted the fact -- highlighted the call that zimmerman made to police that night. attorney bernie de la rionda
asked sondra osterman, a friend of zimmerman's, whether zimmerman seemed angry that night. >> when someone tells the police that these -- pardon my language -- [ bleep ] get away, he's not upset that in the past people have gotten away and this time they're -- this time mr. trayvon martin is going to get away? you don't take it as that? >> i don't take it as he's angry, no. >> let's go back to the court now where george zimmerman's a friend don donnelly is testifying on the stand. >> you heard another par dealing with where he uses other derogatory words? you had not heard that before? >> i may have heard snippets of it, sir. but i'm hearing everything pretty much fully today. >> okay. so you were trying to become familiar with his voice, i guess you were already familiar with his voice but you were trying to compare it to just the 911
recording on saturday? >> yes, sir. >> you didn't go back and listen to any other recordings? >> no. >> okay. that's what i was trying to get. you didn't compare it to any other voices he had made, prior calls or anything like that? >> no, sir. >> because you already knew his voice. >> yes, sir. >> all right. now, on that recording that you listened to the 911 operator -- i'm sorry, the one mr. o'mara played for you -- i'm not going to play it for you you again. you know which one? the one you listened to saturday. >> yes, sir. >> it was similar to the one played in court. >> yes, sir. >> you heard the person you believe is george zimmerman yelling help, help, help continuously. correct? >> that it was absolutely george zimmerman. >> he was yelling -- no doubt in your mind, you believe it is george zimmerman. >> there is not a single doubt in my mind, sir. >> all right. he was yelling over and over help, help, help. >> yes. and i heard like other screams, "help." .
but the screams in particular, i could tell -- i knew that that was george zimmerman. >> so you heard other screams, too, that you weren't sure of? >> there was "help," there was other ones. those particular emotion al -- obviously when someone is in dire straits, whether it be combat or anything else, your voice obviously changes. i've heard 250-pound man i mean sound like a little girl screaming and -- but before you get there, you know who he is. >> so you had -- you believe there was some that were definitely george zimmerman and others you heard you couldn't make out who it was? did i understand you correctly? >> the voices i heard screaming and for help were george zimmerman. there were other voices on top of that in the tape.
there's 911 operator, there's other stuff which, oddly enough, i'm familiar with with because in the din of battle, you have a lot of extraneous other noise going on at the same time. but -- >> other people yelling or other people, whatever, speaking? >> other people yelling at the same time you've got small arms fire, you may have mortars, rockets, you've got people screaming but you still have the ability to pick out the ones that you have to run to as a medic -- >> the ones that are you familiar with -- in other words, the other people, if you weren't familiar, if some guy had shown up that day in the company and you hadn't heard his voice, you wouldn't be able to pick out his voice as easily as the person you're familiar with. correct? >> that's correct, sir. >> yeah. >> the voices that, of course, we've been together most of us,
for period of months, and we all knew each other's voice and who it was. >> my question is, if there had been a person that had shown up that day -- and god forbid, there was a firefight out there, and it was a shooting or whatever, you would not have been able -- you had never heard his voice, you wouldn't be able to pick out that person's voice. >> no, sir. after that february, we had a lot of new guys. >> in this case the only voice you are able to pick out is george zimmerman's voice. correct? >> the voice screaming on the tape is absolutely george zimmerman, sir. >> thank you, your honor. i just have a plaert to brimattp to the course. >> i don't know if it had to do
with before the examination? >> i think we can do it right after. >> okay. any redirect? >> please, your honor. just to be clear, as you listened to the 911 tape, i thought you were saying that. some of the screams were -- >> objection as to leading. >> sustained. >> when you listened to the 911 tape, were all of these screams that you heard, those that said help and those that were just screaming, was that all from george zimmerman? >> yes, sir. >> and there were other voices like the 911 operator, and others. but the background noise, who -- was it one person or was it more than one person in the background? >> that was one person. it was easy for me, based on my past experiences with, very easy for me. that was george zimmerman. >> and did you ever discuss with your wife this non-emergency
call? >> no, sir. >> you had listened to this tape on saturday, two days ago. >> yes, sir. >> when did you contact me? >> i believe i called you saturday afternoon. >> right after you had done this? >> yes, sir. >> is that the first time you you talked about your testifying regarding the 911 call at all? >> yes, sir. >> was that a difficult decision for you to make? >> extremely. >> was it an emotional conversation that you and i had regarding having to deal with this issue? >> yes, sir. >> are you coloring or changing your testimony at all simply to help mr. zimmerman in what you might perceive to be a time of need? >> not at all, sir.
this courtroom is about truth. at some point in time, even though this is personally very hard for me, had this is the place truth is supposed to come out. >> is that why you decided to deal with whatever demons existed from 45 years ago and still testify concerning this event and those events here today? >> yes. >> nothing further, your honor. >> whose idea was it to listen to the recording saturday? >> it was my own, sir. >> okay. thank you, sir. >> may mr. donnelly be excused? >> yes, your honor. >> thank you very much, sir. you rex cuesare excused. counsel, approach the bench. >> joining me now, nbc news legal analyst, lisa bloom. that was george zimmerman's friend, of course, john donnelly taking the stand, lisa. a lot of attention has been paid to the 911 call, various people on both sides, both the prosecution and the defense, saying it was either george
zimmerman or trayvon martin. does that effectively nullify this as a point of proof in this trial? >> it very well could. by my count, we're 7- 3. seven witnesses saying it is george zimmerman, three saying it is trayvon martin. we also have a couple of neighbors who didn't know either of these two men, at least one of them says it sounded like a boy's voice and the defense is taking their witnesses a step further. this last one in particular, not just having him say, yes, i know george zimmerman, yes, that's his voice, but i was an army medic in the vietnam war and i really can identify the voice of somebody screaming because as a medic i had to run out immediately and help them. i don't know if that's going to be significant for the jury or not. >> lisa, you heard the prosecution trying to show intent, that zimmerman was angry. i wonder how successful you think they've been in trying to do that. >> well, they have a couple of points on that. they clearly have the profanity that he uses that we have to bleep out every time they go over it, that he called trayvon martin, who was a stranger to
him, an a-hole, an f'ing punk. just watching him walk down the street. i think that clearly demonstrates some animosity and the defense tries to minimize that by saying well, that's just how people talk, people use profanity. on the other side in the defense favor is the fact that george zimmerman is very calm throughout as he talks and so he doesn't sound like he's raising his voice or that he's overly excited. >> lisa, you've been paying particular attention to the back and forth over where zimmerman's gun was holstered. tell us a little bit more about why are you paying attention to that. >> right. so i've looked very closely at this. especially at the george zimmerman videotaped re-enactment over the weekend. a couple of things jumped out at me. here's where george zimmerman demonstrates that he had his gun holstered, behind his right hip. that is where people holster their guns when they use this particular kind of nylon holster that he used. behind him. now that's important because george zimmerman's story is, i was down on my back. trayvon martin was straddling
me, straddling at the waist with trayvon martin's knees up around his armpits, he says. if that's the case, i wonder how it is possible that trayvon martin saw the gun. that's zimmerman's story. trayvon martin saw the gun, he was reaching for the gun and i had to grab it and shoot first. i would add that the gun and holster are both black. it was a very dark night. so you have to wonder how that story is possible. by the way, i haven't heard the prosecution argue this yet, and today in court mark o'mara demonstrated generally a gun being holstered inside the waist band, and here is how he demonstrated. he demonstrated that the gun would be holstered in the front and i didn't hear a prosecution objection to that. you now if i had been prosecuting the case i might have objected, that's inconsistent with the evidence because george zimmerman had the gun holstered behind him on that video. so maybe this will all be pulled together in closing argument by the prosecution. but it is an interesting point, i think, about the evidence and the way that it is coming out in
the courtroom. >> msnbc legal analyst lisa bloom, thanks for your time and thoughts. the court is now in recess until 1:30. when we come back after the break, there are new indications that pilot error may have contributed to saturday's deadly asiana airline crash in san francisco. we'll get the latest on the investigation and victims on flight 214 next on "now." "and one of the most efficient trucking networks," "with safe, experienced drivers." "we work directly with manufacturers," "eliminating costly markups," "and buy directly from local farmers in every region of the country." "when you see our low prices, remember the wheels turning behind the scenes, delivering for millions of americans, everyday. "dedication: that's the real walmart"
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the crew discussed they were not at their target air speed of 137 knots. they were well below 137. it wasn't just give or take a few knots. >> the ntsb says it could take months to come up with a definitive cause with no evidence of mechanical error. all signs are currently pointing to pilot error. joining me now from san francisco is nbc news correspondent tom costello. tom, what are we learning at this point about the plane's final moments and the latest on the injury totals? >> reporter: well, the latest on the investigation is that -- by the way, over my shoulder is where the plane rests just on the other side here of the water. you can see the burned-out shell sitting there. ntsb investigators are on the scene, along with fire an rescue personnel. what they are focusing really on here is why was this plane coming in so low and so slow. it was coming in well below 137 knots. ideally when you want to come in here and land a 777 at san francisco, you want to come in
at 137, maybe plus 5 knots to be safe. they were well below that, 15 or more knots below 137 so this is a concern to investigators. this was an experienced crew but the guy who was actually at the controls who was piloting the plane had only 43 hours in the 777. he was 1 of 4 pilots on-board this plane and he had 10,000 hours total as a pilot, many of those in other planes. for example, the 747. had he landed here at san francisco before in other planes. but this was the first attempt in a 777 here at san francisco. he had other pilots in the cockpit. so why did they not notice their air speed? this is a critical question the ntsb is focusing on. were they talking to each other and distracted? was there some sort after cultural thing going on here where they were deferring to one or the other? all of that is going to be part of this investigation as they try to figure out why would four experienced pilots come in so slow, dangerously slow at stall
speed, and right up to san francisco international airport a an approach that requires quite a bit of attention as you come in here, alex. >> tom, let me ask you because i think a lot of people are under the impression that in situations like this especially with landings and take-offs, the airplane's on-board computer systems kick in at a certain point if you are in danger and that did not seem to be the case with this flight. do we know why there wasn't sort of an automatic response to the plane flying too low and too slow? >> they were not -- yeah. they were not on auto pilot. they were flying manually. it was up to them to watch their air speed. now the stick shaker kicked in. that's the yoke, literally the pilot's controls. it start the shaking violently when the plane was trying to tell the pilots you're going too slow, too slow and it starts shaking the stick to get your attention. by that time it was too late. they goosed it, they tried to give it a little speed there but it was too late for this plane to in any way attempt to go
around. that's when they hit the seawall barrier. these are all critical questions. i would also emphasize that nothing is ruled out on this investigation. the ntsb has not said this is pilot error, it's not ruled out any mechanical problem. that will take months of investigative process. they will not come one a final conclusion to what caused this crash for probably 12 to 18 months. they've already got leading theories but they're only theories and they have a very methodical process to go through and look at the engines, avio c avioni avionics, the entire air frame structure, pilot performance, training at this particular airline, what was going on inside the cockpit. that will all be a part of this investigation. one more tragic twist to this that we should mention. the san francisco fire department is now saying it believes it is possible -- underlying possible -- that one of its responding fire units hit one of the two 16 year-olds who died. they don't know if that child
died as a result of being hit by a fire engine or whether the child was already dead. but, unfortunately, that's yet another component to this investigation and the fire department's investigating, along with the coroner's office and the ntsb will look at that as well. >> a tragic situation in san francisco. coming up, as edward snowden's future now seems to lie with three lat din american countries, his leaks draw new scrutiny on one of america's most secret courts. we'll discuss fisa's broad powers and the meaning of the word "relevant." next. is like hammering.
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"the guardian" which took place on june 6th was just posted online a few moments ago. having applied for asylum in 21 countries, snowden now finds himself with just three choices. over the weekend the nsa leaker was offered refuge in venezuela, bolivia and nicaragua. one of those countries, venezuela, also gave snowden a firm deadline of today to decide on its offer. yesterday the chairman of the senate foreign relations committee, bob menendez, had tough words for any country offering snowden safe harbor. >> it's very clear that any of these countries that accept snowden, offer his political asylum, is taking a step against the united states, it is making a very clear statement. i'm not surprised by the countries that are offering him asylum. they like sticking it to the united states. >> as snowden remains camped out at a hotel in a moscow airport transit zone, senator john mccain asserted this weekend that the real story is a failure in u.s.-russia relations.
>> the lesson here is, look at this -- our relationship with putin. that reset button we ought to throw that away. it's clear what he is, an old kgb colonel and he's not interested in better relations with the united states. if he was, he would make sure that mr. snowden was sent back to us. >> but others argue that the real, real story is not the snowden saga but indeed the snowden effect. nyu media professor jay rosen defines that effect as the direct and indirect gains in public knowledge from the cascade of events and further reporting that followed edward snowden's leaks of classify information. the snowden effect was evident in reporting this weekend from both "the new york times" and "wall street journal" which ran expose's on the inner workings of america's secretive foreign intelligence surveillance or the fisa court. at times the court's use was described as a narrow legal principle "the special needs
doctrine" which originally concerned drug testing of railway workers. under this special needs doctrine, the fisa court has allowed the u.s. government to vastly expand its domestic surveillance operations. its rulings have so dramatically redrawn american legal boundaries that the "times" concludes the fisa court has created a secret body of law and quietly become almost a parallel supreme court. joining me today, msnbc political analyst and executive editor at msnbc b.com, richard wolfe. joan walsh, and retired u.s. army captain and author of "the other wes more," wes moore. we have the sound bite. let's take a listen. >> the government's going to launch an investigation. i think they're going to say i've committed grave crimes, i've violated the espionage act, they're going to say i've aided
our enemies in making them aware of these systems. but that argument can be made against anybody who reveals information that points out mass surveillance systems. >> richard, it's interesting that they're choosing to release this now. don't know if there was a media strategy in place. there seems to have been some forethought in terms of holding this for a later date, this is now in the midst of all of the asylum talk and obviously opinions have changed and evolved in and around edward snowden and exactly what place he occupies in american history. what do you make of his sort of counter -- what is now a counterargument to an argument that most certainly has been made on the national stage. >> well, for a start, i don't know what "the guardian" sequencing is but i think when their reporters go out promising blockbusters every day and every week an they come out with additional video interview stuff, it doesn't feel like a blockbuster. and it continues to put the focus on snowden and his intent.
he's given being interviews where his intent has come under question. did he take the job so that he could reveal this stuff. was he shocked in the job and that forced him to reveal it like a whistle-blower. what was he talking about in these chat rooms, online. it continues to put the focus on him as a character, which frankly, is running counter to what we're seeing in this journalism and these other places where we are actually focused on the stuff that really matters, the fisa court, its powers, what it does and how it does its work. and so i don't think that snowden himself is actually helping this debate at this point. i think he's undermining it. >> rick -- and snowden, that traitor, ruined my lead by excerpting this interview! because we do want to focus on the fisa court and what the "times" and "journal" were reporting this weekend. i think it is relatively breathtaking that under the special needs privilege, which was effectively used -- i'll
read the exact wording. the speg needs doctrine according to the "new york times" was originally established in 1989 by the supreme court in a ruling allowing the drug testing of railway workers finding that a minimal intrusion on privacy was justified by the government's need to combat an overriding public danger. that thing, drug testing railway workers, has now been applied -- they've applied that concept more broadly. fisa judges have ruled that the nsa's collection and examination of american communications data to track possible terrorists does not run afoul of the fourth amendment because of that special needs privilege. i think that has prompted a lot of questioning as to whether that's too broad an interpretation. >> well, the new things here are that they can look into things like nuclear proliferation. also topics that people are legitimately scared of. what bothers me about these new revelations about the fisa court is that of the 11 members, all of them appointed by chief
justice roberts, john roberts, ten are republican appointees. this is an even more republican court than the supreme court itself. at least there you got four people who are looking out for the public interests. >> i mean that assertion that at times, joan, the fisa court is a parallel supreme court? >> that's terrifying. >> yeah, it is terrifying. not only are the decisions and reasonings kept secret, petitioning to see those as the aclu has petitioned the supreme court has been turned down using these executive i think privilege. i guess the question is, does the administration respond, and is there -- do you think americans feel outraged by the idea of the fisa court handing down these decisions in secret? >> i don't really know. i can't speak for all americans. i'm outraged and i think that every time we sort of say, well, the public doesn't care so we don't have to care -- that's not what you're saying, alex, but i have heard that. that is a little bit alarming.
i am with jay rosen on wanting to pay attention to the snowden effect. i also find there were 1,800 requests for surveillance last year. not one was turned down. they are establishing new judicial precedents in secret for interpretations of law we know nothing about in a world that is rapidly changing. it deals with technology, it deals with things that prior courts have not had to deal with, and it is all being orchestrated by john roberts. i mean, the progressive community, let's face it, is split. but my friends who are kind of down on snowden and not concerned about this whole thing but are very concerned about the john roberts court and what it is doing to voting rights and workers' rights ought to think twice about what the john roberts fisa court is doing to our rights. >> this is the other john roberts court. this wes, the "wall street journal" reports the use of the word relevant. the president has said there are three branches of government have signed off on all of this.
right? but when you dig deeper into how the law allows for both all these branches of government to do these things, the terminology is incredibly vague. and the journal brings in today the notion of the word relevant. relevant, writes the journal, has long been a broad standard but the way the court is interpreting it to mean, in effect, everything is new, says. i think it is a stretch of previous federal legal interpretations. if a federal jury served a grand jury superior for such a broad class of records in a criminal investigation, he or she would be laughed out of court. we are coming off of the george zimmerman trial. we are very sort of in the mode, the thinking of legal minds. you hear stuff like this. whether it is imminent threat which is another justification. or relevant. these are hugely broad terms with much gray area. >> with much great area. honestly, the ambiguity of them is the most dangerous thing about them. i think there is something very
real about the snoewden effect but i think the most dangerous thing is the snowden precedent. and what this means in future ways we determine what exactly is legal and unlawful and moral. one of the great things about our democracy is that there are checks and balances. there are state checks and balances of what powers executive branch can have, judicial branch can have, legislative branch can have and they're all baked into the system. but with the snowden case, with all the checks and balances we thought were there, they aren't. the same thing from the basics of how exactly are whistle-blowers identified, to what exactly is a jurisdictional boundaries of the fisa court. the same things that we've all prided our democracy on are being questioned and challenged by this entire case. snowden is about much bigger than a snowden effect. it is the precedent being established by all this. >> i guess, what is the legacy. richard, i do want to follow a little bit on john mccain's assertion in terms of the
geopolitical dynamics here. we know that the deadline for snowden's asylum in venezuela is today. we don't have an update on that yet, but i wonder what you make of that idea that this sort of betrays a larger schism in relations between the u.s. and russia, but also the dynamic of sort of america and the rest of the world. there is an op-ed this sunday, "russia and china appear to have decided that to better advance their own interests they need to knock washington down a peg or two. neither probably wrants to kick off a new coal war, probably, let alone hot conflicts and their actions in the case of mr. snowden show it. still both countries are seeking greater diplomatic clout that they apparently can only acquire by constraining u.s. in world's fairs there is no better way to flex one's muscles than to visibly diminish the strongest power." >> can you imagine if john mccain had been elected president? someone who talks like that on the sunday talk shows? what kind of diplomacy would that be.
secondly, this story is so weird. i didn't realize that asylum offers came with an expiring date. you have to decide by monday or it is gone! this is a strange -- this is a strange diplomatic set of circumstances. one thing that, however, is not strange is that russia and china would see some domestic political benefit by poking america in the eye. when has it been any different? you mean with, even john mccain would recognize that things have actually been worse with russia in our recent history. one of the remarkable things to me is that putin didn't actually embrace this guy and parade him in front of the cameras as a hero. he said, in that most precious sound bite of all, where he said, even though it is strange -- i'm paraphrasing. even though it is strange that i'm saying this -- >> nobody paraphrases putin like you. >> -- you've got to stop hurting america. there are so many strange things. france and spain and everyone else bringing down the bolivian plane. i actually think this shows the reach of american power right now that they've caused this man
so many plels throblems that he get out of moscow's airport. will he get out? absolutely. venezuela -- there's no lever that we can pull to stop the venezuelans from stopping him. bolivian president sure as hell wants to celebrate this man and make him into whatever the equivalent of sainthood is. >> part of snowden's case was, a lot of the surveillance has been conducted on foreigners and people overseas and that doesn't make it right. everybody should be -- just because we're surveilling people in france doesn't make it right. that said, is he making his bed with some pretty nasty people in terms of press freedoms, transparency and rule of law. so if edward snowden does end up in a place like venezuela or maybe cuba, is it not incumbent upon him to call out those governments for what they do to their own people? >> well, it should be. if he's got a taste for martyrdom. but one person's criminal is
tho another's freedom fighter. it is easy to see why -- i think even if there were a wonderfully liberal president of russia, they still wouldn't want to roll over and play dead for -- on this particular issue. putin has been so clever with this. essentially he has said, snowden says he is a fighter for human rights and openness. therefore, he can't come here. so he simultaneously tweaks uncle sam and sends a message to his own people, we don't like human rights activists here. >> and we don't like leakers either. >> we don't like leakers. we have geet somethiot somethin here with the nsa. this is a brotherhood that goes beyond ideology. >> we talk about what happens next, if snowden ends up in a country like cuba or venezuela where there are a number of questionable acts and he remains silent -- then, you should go to
iceland. because they at least have a consistent rule on a lot of these subjects and it wouldn't be incumbent upon him to actually do something about press freedoms or human rights abuses or transparency. >> i mean if he takes one of these offers, i don't see him becoming a freedom fighter for the human rights of venezuelans or -- i don't see him going to cuba. but i don't expect that to happen. is that hypocrisy? to some degree. >> how is that not totally -- >> it's hypocrisy. but clearly at this point his options are limbed. i'm not defending him but i don't see him -- i don't see any consistent demanded here that he then becomes this great freedom fighter. i just don't see that happening. when you're the guest of foreign government and you don't have other options. >> that's the key point. it is definitely hypocrisy but also what ends up happening is he doesn't have other options at this point because he understands his situation. he understands the current place that he's placed himself in where it is negotiating with
these three individual countries or then being returned back to the united states where he's not going to bite the and this feeds him. >> he went to hong kong for safe keeping! what was he thinking? he put himself in this position. >> we should legislatialso ment is happening as bradley manning is on trial. snowden has said repeatedly, look what's happening to bradley manning, why would i go back to the united states of america, is that guy getting a fair trial. how much does that figure into -- i will say, this is probably the first mention we've had in hours, if not days, if not weeks, of bradley manning. to some degree it keeps his name alive in the conversation. >> yes, there is a debate that has been sparked. that is the snowden effect and this is exactly the kind of debate that we should be having.
we should be thinking about has congress done its job in terms of balancing the public interest and the national security. quite clearly, they have not, and they chose not to. no one restricted them from voting this whole thing down. they didn't have to reauthorize this. we don't know much about the fisa court. even with the secrecy that comes with national intelligence, there is a room for debate about the powers of that court that wouldn't breach any kind of secrets. that debate needs to happen. i just think that snowden himself, his intent, his strategy, his personality, his libertarianism, all of that clouds these very complicated issues and makes it much harder at this point to have this debate. >> i will say one thing we do know about today that we did not know -- one person whose name we are more familiar with today is that of the name reggie walton, who is the chief fisa judge on the fisa court. he is 64 years old. he was appointed to the fisa court in 2007 by chief justice john roberts. we will be looking more into
reggie walton's career, life and times in the coming days but we have to take a break. when we are back, violent clashes leave dozens dead and hundreds injured outside a compound where ousted egyptian president mohamed morsi is believed to be held. we will get the latest on an egypt divided, live from cairo just ahead. ♪ there's a new way to fight litter box odor. introducing tidy cats with glade tough odor solutions. two trusted names, one amazing product. what are you guys doing? having some fiber! with new phillips' fiber good gummies. they're fruity delicious! just two gummies have 4 grams of fiber! to help support regularity! i want some... [ woman ] hop on over! [ marge ] fiber the fun way, from phillips'.
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if your breathing suddenly worsens, your throat or tongue swells, you get hives, vision changes or eye pain, or problems passing urine. other side effects include dry mouth and constipation. nothing can reverse copd. spiriva helps me breathe better. does breathing with copd weigh you down? don't wait to ask your doctor about spiriva. from popular revolt to possible coup, to deadly clash. the description of what's happening in egypt is changing by the day. yesterday house intelligence committee chair mike rogers offered this explanation. >> i would not try to circumvent the law by calling this something it is not. clearly, the muslim brotherhood was using the instruments of democracy to try to islamicize, which means the brotherhood going through all of the agencies of the government and
trying to take over. >> we'll discuss the definition of revolution and get a live report from cairo coming up next. hi! i'm sandy, and i know savings. this metal frame pool on rollback, you save $80! and this 4 burner grill on rollback, you save $11. get more summer for your money at walmart's super summer savings event.
egypt has gone from coup, or not a coup, to chaos. demonstrators came out for another day of protests in cairo today. according to the ministry of help, 51 people were killed and 435 were injured early this morning when violence erupted as supporters of mohamed morsi held a rally to demand his release. military officials said this morning that one police officer and one army officer were also killed. egypt has been without a fully functioning government since last wednesday. a power vacuum that has cast deep uncertainty over the future of the country. joining us now from cairo, nbc news foreign correspondent atia ab abowi. does this push back from morsi
supporters perhaps undermine the idea that all of the egyptian public wanted to see morsi's ouster? >> well, hi there, alex. that's a very good question. one thing that i think that most of the public and in fact back home people should remember is that egypt is a big country and it has great divides and in the incident this morning, it's created even deeper divides between both the anti and pro morsi camp. it is even causing divides in the anti-morsi camp. they decided to get out of the coalition because of the bloodshed today. but there are egyptian whose have been against morsi, primarily because they say he has not done enough after the revolution. those who support morsi in the beginning have joined the anti-morsi camp but there are still millions of egyptians pro-mupro pro-muslim brotherhood,
pro-islamic state. but there are a whole lot more egyptians out there who want change and they don't think that change is coming fast enough. >> wes, this brings up -- the question being whether to call this a coup or not a coup has i think put a the lot of people -- we found ourselves at a crossroads. to a certain degree, a large part of the egyptian population didn't want to see morsi go. there is also the argument that if you don't like what is happening in a democracy, you do not tear apart the threads that hold the democratic institution together to get -- change should happen within the institution. i don't even know how you begin to answer that what seems certain is that this region will be in chaos for some time given the lack of leadership. >> it is important that you say the region. this is -- this has implications that are much larger than simply just egypt. when we are talking about egypt, first talking about the second largest recipient of u.s. aid in the world. >> $1.3 billion in military aid alone. >> the second thing is our
precedence is things you have to recognize. whether it be morsi or a lot of leaders in the region, they are looking at a lot of other precedents which have happened in the past 24 months within the region, whether it be gadhafi, or what happens right now with bashar al assad. so the idea of leadership in the region, what that leadership represents, what that leadership will entail and what the dynamics of that leadership transition looks like are being held up in and egypt is a prime example of this. >> in the "times" today, "morsi's fall doesn't bode well," it reinforces this notion that the military government comes in and if ultimately is not the problem solver than the ultimate sort of governing hand. that reaffirms that assad story, as it does the story of countless other middle eastern autocracies where the military plays a really outsized role.
>> this is the real egyptian constitution, the egyptian armed forces. that's the one constant that runs through the whole story, practically since king farouk's day. another thing that's really kind of scary about this is what it will do to the internal politics of islamism. here you have what we all kind of put hope in as a sort of moderate islamism, gets tossed out with the support of the radical islamist party. then this divide is sharper and sharper and the notion that you've got to resort to violence will get more and more popular. so it is a horrendous mess. >> richard, there's been a lot of talk about the president and his position or muddy position or whether or not john kerry was on his yacht and all of this and the rest. where does the administration -- where is there even a place for the administration to be and given the changing nature of this? >> it is quite similar to the syrian situation. there aren't many good choices here. in fact, there are no good
choices. the president wanted to be on the side of democracy and here is he, clearly american interests are not on the democratic side of this equation. so no real room for american policy to come out in any honest way. that's of course why they won't call it what it is, which is a coup. the situation moving forward is -- could easily, easily spiral into civil war which would be even worse than the situation now. >> that would just send the entire region into chaos. nbc's atia abawi, thank you for your time. stay safe. we hope to get more updates from you as the week continues. thank you to richard, rick, joan and wes. i'll see you back here tomorrow at noon eastern. find us on facebook.com/now with alex. "andrea mitchell reports" is next. it's a brand new start. your chance to rise and shine. with centurylink as your trusted technology partner,
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